Legislature(1997 - 1998)

01/22/1998 06:08 PM House CRA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
        HOUSE COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS                                   
                 STANDING COMMITTEE                                            
                  January 22, 1998                                             
                     6:08 p.m.                                                 
                   Bethel, Alaska                                              
                                                                               
                                                                               
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                             
                                                                               
WESTERN ALASKA ECONOMIC DISASTER BRIEFING AND TESTIMONY                        
                                                                               
TAPE(S)                                                                        
                                                                               
98-2, SIDE(S) A & B                                                            
98-3, SIDE(S) A & B                                                            
98-4, SIDE(S) A                                                                
                                                                               
CALL TO ORDER                                                                  
                                                                               
Representative Ivan, Chairman, convened the House Community and                
Regional Affairs Standing Committee meeting at 6:08 p.m. at the                
Kuna Hall in Bethel.                                                           
                                                                               
PRESENT                                                                        
                                                                               
Committee members present at the call to order were Representatives            
Ivan, Dyson, Joule, Ryan and Sanders.  Representatives Ogan and                
Kookesh were absent.  Also attending via teleconference was                    
Representative Phillips, Speaker of the House.                                 
                                                                               
SUMMARY OF INFORMATION                                                         
                                                                               
TAPE 98-2, SIDE A                                                              
Number 001                                                                     
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN IVAN explained that the purpose of the meeting is to             
get as much information as possible on the poor fishing season that            
occurred in the Lower Kuskokwim this past summer and the economic              
consequences with which they are now faced in the area.  After the             
Governor declared an economic disaster in Western Alaska area, the             
community responded by participating in the Coordinated Response               
Partnership (CRP) teams program.  Representative Ivan thanked all              
the participants (a list was provided).  He also acknowledged the              
memberships that participated in developing the CRP:  the                      
Association of Village Council Presidents (AVCP), the Department of            
Agriculture RDA and the Alaska Housing Finance Corporation (AHFC).             
                                                                               
Number 080                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS, Speaker of the House, spoke via                  
teleconference.  She expressed concern about the long-term economic            
effects the area will face due to the diminished fish returns in               
1997.  She stated that the economic disaster also affects the urban            
centers as well, such as Anchorage and many others that will not               
get as many dollars as they have received in the past from rural               
residents who spend a lot of money in urban areas.  Speaker                    
Phillips said it is important that plans be put into place to jump-            
start the economies of both the Kuskokwim and Bristol Bay                      
communities and regions, which were affected by these poor returns             
during last summer's fishing season.                                           
                                                                               
Number 164                                                                     
                                                                               
JIM SANDERS, Supervisor, Southcentral Regional Office, Division of             
Municipal And Regional Assistance, Department of Community and                 
Regional Affairs (DCRA), acknowledged the AVCP and Representative              
Ivan's staff.  Mr. Sanders discussed the CRP process and plans                 
adopted by Department of Commerce in Washington, D.C.  Mr. Sanders             
explained that he was hoping to get federal assistance and had gone            
in two directions.  One was the Federal Emergency Management Agency            
(FEMA), asking for money for employment insurance and for                      
availability of their Small Business Administration (SBA) loan                 
program.  Mr. Sanders stated, "As you know, FEMA has turned us                 
down."  Despite this, the Governor's office was in the process of              
reviewing the case.  Two was to the Magnuson-Stevens Act.  This was            
something that was newly introduced this past year, and there was              
no funding for that particular element of the program, so they had             
to turn to the congressional delegation and were successful in                 
securing $7 million for the disaster.  The state needs to match                
that with a 25 percent match, so we need $2.3 million, which will              
make a total of $9.3 million.  Mr. Sanders  explained how the plans            
and funds will be carried out when they became available.                      
                                                                               
Number 328                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE REGGIE JOULE asked Mr. Sanders if the state match is            
a required match in order to receive the $7 million of federal                 
money.                                                                         
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded that a 25 percent match is required.                     
                                                                               
Number 336                                                                     
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN asked Mr. Sanders if the $7 million was available                
now.                                                                           
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS replied it was, although it would take a while to get              
it through the contracting procedures and into the hands of the                
state.   Due to the time frame, disbursement wouldn't happen until             
mid-to-late March.                                                             
                                                                               
Number 362                                                                     
                                                                               
PETER J. MILLER, P.O. Box 8065, Tuntutuliak, Alaska, (907) 256-                
2626, testified in Yup'ik.                                                     
                                                                               
Number 390                                                                     
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Mr. Miller's testimony about poor                     
financial conditions in Tuntutuliak due to the fishery.  Mr. Miller            
commented on the problems currently faced by the Kuskokwim                     
fishermen and other commercial fishermen in surrounding villages.              
His concern was paying for light bills and some expenses that                  
include telephone bills, water, sewer; he also needs heating oil,              
gasoline and motor oil for snow machines (indisc.) summertime.                 
There is also a need for people to continue their subsistence way              
of life through maintaining their snow machines, like buying parts.            
His concern is also commercial fishing gear for the upcoming                   
season.                                                                        
                                                                               
Number 428                                                                     
                                                                               
AL LEXIE testified in Yup'ik via teleconference from Atmautluak                
(address not provided.)                                                        
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Mr. Lexie's testimony of general comments             
about the poor fishing season.                                                 
                                                                               
Number 458                                                                     
                                                                               
MIKE WASSILIE, SR., P.O. Box 8084, Tuntutuliak, Alaska 99680, (907)            
256-2210, testified in Yup'ik.                                                 
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Mr. Wassilie's testimony.  Mr. Wassilie               
had the same concerns as the last two speakers, about housing bills            
and general all-around bills.  He also had some questions about the            
money that was advocated for the loan program.  Chairman Ivan                  
answered the questions in Yup'ik for Mr. Wassilie.                             
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS again summarized the loan process, saying 20 percent               
off the top of the whole amount will be for the loan program that              
will be available both in Bristol Bay and the Kuskokwim.  Loans                
will probably be somewhere between $100 and $1,500.  The terms for             
the loan are very generous in that it is an interest-free loan and             
an individual would have at least four years, starting after this              
coming fishing season, to pay that loan back.  If there was a bad              
year, the loan repayment could be put off for a year.  One option              
to secure the loan is for people to sign over part of their Alaska             
permanent fund dividend (PFD).  If one borrowed $2,000 over a four-            
year period, $500 would be deducted from the PFD.  If one made                 
enough money during the fishing season, the loan could be paid back            
after that season.                                                             
                                                                               
CARL BERGER, Executive Director, Lower Kuskokwim Economical                    
Development Council (LKEDC), Box 2021, Bethel, Alaska, 99559 (907)             
543-5967, encouraged support for the supplemental appropriation                
that was going to be requested by the DCRA.  Mr. Berger spoke about            
a number of things that are causing hardships along with the poor              
fishing.  The LKEDC is trying to work on development of                        
alternatives to selling fish.  Mr. Berger also encouraged support              
for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game's (ADF&G's) budget so               
that they can provide adequate fisheries research and resource                 
monitoring during the commercial season.  Mr. Berger stated, "As a             
personal request, I advocate for allowing fish and game management             
to remain with the state.  It is very important that people in our             
state feel strongly that we should be in position to manage our own            
fish and game resources and not turn them over to the federal                  
government for management.  We are a state."                                   
                                                                               
TAPE 98-2, SIDE B                                                              
Number 583                                                                     
                                                                               
JOHN ANDREW, (907) 557-5515, testified in Yup'ik via teleconference            
(no address provided).                                                         
                                                                               
Number 687                                                                     
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Mr. Andrew's testimony.  Mr. Andrew was               
testifying on behalf of himself and has been a Bristol Bay                     
fisherman and had also served as a pastor.  Since 1995, he has                 
retired from pastorship.  His only income is from commercial                   
fishing.  Most recently he had physical problems and was unable to             
fish, so he leased out his Bristol Bay permit.  Mr. Andrew is                  
trying to use his resources wisely but is running out of resources.            
Currently, he has two loans; one is for federal taxes, and he has              
been working on paying that.  By the end of February, he is going              
to be out of funds.  He made comments on what he has learned                   
through the newspaper about the plan that was discussed at the                 
beginning of the hearing and that the FEMA program was not                     
approved.  Chairman Ivan briefly gave Mr. Andrew some of the                   
components of the plan; that was presented in Yup'ik.                          
                                                                               
                                                                               
Number 728                                                                     
                                                                               
JESSE BEAVER testified in Yup'ik via teleconference from Goodnews              
Bay.                                                                           
                                                                               
Number 756                                                                     
                                                                               
MAGGIE SOLTS testified via teleconference from Goodnews Bay.  A                
herring fisherman, Ms. Solts had been told that she was not                    
eligible to apply for any application because she is a herring                 
fisherman, not a salmon fisherman.                                             
                                                                               
Number 770                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS explained that the disaster was aimed at the salmon                
fishery collapse in both the Kuskokwim and the Bristol Bay                     
fisheries and was not based upon the decline in the herring.  The              
application for those funds had to be very specific about what                 
fishery was being talked about and what the disaster was; and the              
Governor's declaration identified the salmon fisheries and not the             
herring fisheries.                                                             
                                                                               
Number 784                                                                     
                                                                               
MS. SOLTS asked if there was a way she could be eligible as a                  
herring fisherman.  She explained that she made half of what she               
made last year, and herring is her sole salary for the year.                   
                                                                               
Number 790                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded that he had received a number of calls from              
other people that are also involved in the herring fishery.  Mr.               
Sanders explained that the way the disaster declaration regulations            
are written pertaining to funds, there was not a way for herring               
fishermen to participate in this particular disaster program.                  
                                                                               
Number 810                                                                     
                                                                               
WASSILIE ROBERTS testified in Yup'ik via teleconference from                   
Goodnews Bay.                                                                  
                                                                               
Number 848                                                                     
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Mr. Roberts' testimony.  Mr. Roberts                  
fishes herring and salmon.  Mr. Roberts is concerned about low                 
prices in herring and that Goodnews Bay has no buyers in the early             
season.  Coho salmon fishing is poor.  He had comments similar to              
those of previous callers.                                                     
                                                                               
Number 863                                                                     
                                                                               
JACKSON WILLIAMS, SR., Box 128, Akiak, Alaska, 99552, (907) 765-               
7428, testified representing the Akiak IRA Council.  Five years ago            
he transferred his permit to his older son.  His son died about two            
years ago, and now he is a permit holder again.  Fishing is Mr.                
Williams' only employment.  He was very concerned that fishing will            
not get better.  He would like to see more enforcement in Area M to            
ensure chum are not being thrown out.  He also said there was a                
need for more state resource personnel to help.                                
                                                                               
Number 986                                                                     
                                                                               
FRED SMITH, Box 219, Bethel, Alaska, (907) 543-7375, testified                 
representing the AVCP as a CRP member.  Their first concern was to             
try to help meet the immediate needs of the fishermen on the                   
Kuskokwim and then deal with the longer-term issues.  Given the                
time frame with the federal funds that Jim Sanders mentioned                   
earlier, they strongly encourage the legislature to respond to                 
Governor Knowles' supplemental request for appropriations, both the            
25 percent match the state is obligated to meet and, for more                  
immediate needs, the emergency unemployment insurance appropriation            
that would directly help individual families in the villages.  With            
the FEMA denial, the state would be the next-best bet to come up               
with the funds for that emergency unemployment insurance.  Mr.                 
Smith said another thing that they at AVCP feel needs to be done is            
that the disaster declaration area needs to be expanded to include             
all the communities affected:  Quinhagak, Goodnews Bay, Kipnuk,                
Chefornak, Nightmute, Toksook Bay, et cetera.  One of the long-term            
issues, resource stabilization, is a primary concern.                          
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON stated, "Representative Ivan and I are               
particularly interested in changing state laws, making it easier               
for villages to organize in a way that is both comfortable and                 
within resources that they have.  We very much encourage you to                
forward to us your suggestions on how the law should be changed to             
make it easier for you to have a government that is recognized by              
the state, that is comfortable for you, and that would be a                    
legitimate channel for all those resources and hopefully work                  
together with the other forms of governments."                                 
                                                                               
MR. SMITH responded that they have experienced disadvantages this              
summer.  He gave an example of the rapid response program of the               
DCRA; the Bristol Bay side was able to tap into those funds to                 
start assessing the economic and social impacts of the fishery                 
disaster.  It was not until the 18th or 19th of December that there            
was an RP that AVCP, as a regional nonprofit, could apply for those            
funds to assess the economical impacts.  By that time, AVCP had                
already spent quite a bit of their time and resources doing that.              
If there were state resources designed to be put to use in the                 
event of a disaster like this one, then there should be a way to               
channel those resources to the affected area.  It was not possible             
to tap into those funds as easily as a borough or municipal                    
government could.                                                              
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE JOE RYAN asked Mr. Smith if the fisherman have fish             
landing taxes or some kind of tax.                                             
                                                                               
MR. SMITH responded that the only places you will see the raw fish             
tax is in the city of Bethel and on the Bristol Bay side, the                  
boroughs and the city of Dillingham.  Those communities that are               
experiencing this disaster count on that fish tax or those                     
entities.                                                                      
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Smith who needs the money more, the              
community or the individuals.                                                  
                                                                               
MR. SMITH said he thought that with the time that it has taken,                
there are some federal funds in sight that are going to eventually             
make it out to the communities.  But because these communities rely            
on their residents to pay for public services, it has trickled into            
the public sector now.  The AVCP's first concern was where to try              
to help the affected fisherman with fuel, electricity and those                
kinds of costs.  There are two avenues available, one being the                
Division of Public Assistance, which offered the seasonal waiver               
this summer for welfare recipients; that did not include everyone.             
Given the numbers that were approved for that waiver, it resulted              
in a minimal impact.  The other help that has been available is                
through the AVCP's social services department, where they                      
administer funds for energy and general assistance.                            
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN explained the reason the borough or (indisc.--             
muffled) because the country makes sure the money is spent the way             
it is suppose to be spent.  Representative Ryan suggested that the             
community puts suggestions together to set up (indisc.) whichever              
entity receives it.  That way, the state can take responsibility to            
know where the money is going and that there is some accountability            
for it.  That is probably the reluctance of the state not to give              
it to a organized entity in the unorganized borough.                           
                                                                               
MR. SMITH responded that until it is given, there is not going to              
be the opportunity for any community to be responsible for the                 
accounting side of it.                                                         
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN commented that we would like to take some of the                 
hurdles away, to get the help down to the families and communities.            
He understood that one of the hurdles that might be (indisc.--                 
muffled) municipalities.  His understanding from Mr. Sanders is                
that for time efficiency, any village organization can take                    
responsibility and provide financial reports.  Chairman Ivan said              
he was assured by Mr. Sanders they would work with whomever - for              
example, traditional councils or IRAs - in executing the plan.                 
Chairman Ivan asked Jim Sanders if that was correct.                           
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded, "Yes, I think it's the language of that                 
proposal that it is up to the community to determine the avenue                
that those funds are going to come in and re-administer."                      
                                                                               
STAN BERLIN testified in Yup'ik via teleconference from Atmautluak.            
                                                                               
TAPE 98-3, SIDE A                                                              
Number 0097                                                                    
                                                                               
JAMES NICKLAI testified in Yup'ik.                                             
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN translated Stan Berlin's and James Nicklai's                     
testimony.  He said Mr. Berlin and Mr. Nicklai had concerns about              
the plan and loan program.  Mr. Ivan explained to Mr. Berlin and               
Mr. Nicklai that it is his understanding that that could be                    
renegotiated, if necessary, to meet their income situations in                 
commercial fishery.                                                            
                                                                               
TOM WRIGHT, Committee Aide, House Community and Regional Affairs               
Standing Committee, and Legislative Assistant to Representative                
Ivan Ivan, stated, "Fred Smith gave me the numbers you requested;              
I will go through this paragraph real quickly.  This information is            
from Division of Commercial Fisheries' September news release.                 
Kuskokwim permit holders received $1,058,102 for their catch.  The             
value of the catch was $4,391,755, 80 percent below the previous               
ten-year average of $5,449,861.  The average permit holder received            
$1,505; this was below the most recent ten-year average of $6757               
per permit holder; that was a '97 figure."                                     
                                                                               
Number 164                                                                     
                                                                               
JOSEPH ALEXIE, Box 135, Tuluksak (city), Alaska 99679, (907) 695-              
6922, testified representing Tuluksak Tribal Council.  He is a                 
Kuskokwim fisherman.  Mr. Alexie commented on low prices and how it            
hurts the fishery.  He also explained his loan payments and his                
situation in Tuluksak.  He is concerned about Tuluksak being last              
on the list for help from state funds.                                         
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN responded that the (indisc.) of the community council            
is no (indisc.--muffled) problem as long as there is an active                 
village government that can keep financial records, as required for            
the funds as they are disbursed.  These funds are also (indisc.)               
the communities and we certainly encourage the communities to do               
what they can to help.                                                         
                                                                               
ANTHONY CAOLE, Tribal Administrator, Quinhagak, testified via                  
teleconference.  He is concerned that Quinhagak and Goodnews Bay               
have been excluded from the disaster relief program.  The majority             
of their permit holders are in Quinhagak and are holding Kuskokwim             
permits.  The value of the Quinhagak fishery W4 for the last eight             
years has averaged about $950,000.  In 1996 it dropped to $535,000,            
and in 1997 it dropped even further, to $498,000, half of what the             
average was.  This last summer was worse, due to the fact that so              
many of the fisherman from Kuskokwim villages came down to                     
Quinhagak to fish.  They were literally deluged with other                     
fishermen.  The value of the W4 fishery in 1997 was $498,000.  They            
figured that 55 percent of that went to Quinhagak and 45 percent               
went to other fishermen in other villages.  They have never seen so            
many fishermen come down as in 1997.  Local government also felt               
the effects; for example, by the end of the summer the public                  
safety building was demolished.  Quinhagak strongly feels that they            
should be included in the disaster relief programs.                            
                                                                               
Number 303                                                                     
                                                                               
JOSHUA CLEVELAND, Quinhagak National Resource Director, testified              
via teleconference.  He gave his views on economic disaster.  He               
expressed concerns about Quinhagak not being included in the                   
disaster relief declaration.                                                   
                                                                               
Number 365                                                                     
                                                                               
VERNON BAVILLA, Quinhagak Natural Resource Department, testified               
via  teleconference.  He was concerned that Quinhagak and Goodnews             
Bay areas are not being included in the disaster relief                        
declaration.  Money should be available not only in the form of                
grants and loans to the villages, but also to individual permit                
holders.  He made comments on there being too many fisherman from              
other villages coming to Quinhagak.  Mr. Bavillo asked the                     
committee, "What about making money available to the local                     
communities to establish value-added facilities so we can get away             
from raw fish and start value-adding their products?"                          
                                                                               
Number 401                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Jim Sanders why Quinhagak and Goodnews              
Bay were excluded and if there is an appeal process.                           
                                                                               
Number 404                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded, "I can't exactly explain why, but I know the            
Governor's office was identifying areas.  They were looking at the             
current numbers of fish that where being caught and the number of              
openings that had occurred.  The Kuskokwim, I believe there were               
only two openings for the chum fishery.  The Administration was                
looking for numbers that were there; I am not a expert, so I can't             
really speak with expertise.  But the Quinhagak and the Goodnews               
Bay fisheries, at least to my understanding, did have openings and             
they did have fishery activities going on; as for the other areas,             
they did not.  I believe that was the reason that those areas where            
in line for inclusion or exclusion."                                           
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Sanders if there was any way that               
the residents of those areas or the DCRA could appeal that                     
exclusion at this point in the process.                                        
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded, "I don't know if the CRA or communities                 
could appeal it, but it is certainly something we could explore to             
see if it could be expanded.  I don't know how we would expand it              
in the current funding in the Magnuson-Stevens Act.  I don't think             
the door is closed on asking for additional funding.  We are                   
looking for more funding in the future now that we have the actual             
numbers."                                                                      
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON commented.  "If I understand you, the process             
for this grant through the Magnuson-Stevens Act is completed, and              
it is too late to change the boundaries of it."                                
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded that he really did not know because it is a              
brand new program and there really are very few regulations in                 
dealing with Congress.  But their decision was based upon what the             
Governor identified in the original declaration.  To go back and               
open it up for renegotiation, Mr. Sanders said, he really doesn't              
know what that process would be.                                               
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked:  If the DCRA or individuals wanted to              
pursue that, would the Governor's office be the place to pursue the            
appeal?                                                                        
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded, "That would definitely be the place to                  
pursue it."                                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON commented to Anthony Caole, the Tribal                    
Administer of Quinhagak, that the CRA committee was impressed by               
the cooperative local government in Quinhagak.  He also stated that            
the committee is in a process to try to revise the state law to                
make it easier for local communities to do their business and to               
interact with the federal and state governments.  Mr. Dyson said               
that the committee would like to hear any suggestions they may                 
have.                                                                          
                                                                               
ANTHONY CAOLE responded, "For the record, the committee member that            
had a concern about accountability with tribal government, our                 
community has had four years of unqualified audits operating                   
federal programs and we are now eligible for what the government               
calls self-government status, which allows us to receive funds                 
directly from the United States with very little strings attached.             
In a sense, we have demonstrated more accountability than the                  
borough.  With regards to fostering our cooperative approach to                
government, Quinhagak, I believe, is the only community in the                 
state of Alaska that has consolidated their municipal and tribal               
administrations.  Our tribal government is currently administering             
all the city's funds.  The reason this has happened is because the             
municipalities have been defunded to the point that they can no                
longer sustain and operate themselves.  The tribal government had              
to assist the city in order to keep the city functioning.                      
Quinhagak's hope is that the legislature will allow tribes to                  
receive funds directly from the state without creating further                 
administrative arms, such as nonprofits.  We would also like this              
approach to [be] officially sanctioned or approved by the state and            
that the issue (indisc.--muffled) delegating these responsibilities            
through their IRA councils, et cetera, that it be approved by the              
legislature."                                                                  
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON responded, "That's the very thing that the                
committee is interested in doing, and we would be very glad if you             
dropped the committee a note, or call."                                        
                                                                               
[10-minute break.]                                                             
                                                                               
Number 479                                                                     
                                                                               
BUSTER RICHARDSON, Box 371, Bethel, Alaska, 99559, (907) 543-3397,             
Tender Operator, explained that several people along the river are             
tender operators and do not hold fish permits.  However, they live             
in the community and have families.  Most of the money the tender              
boats made went to fuel oil.   Mr. Richardson pointed out that                 
tender workers were hit as hard as the fisherman, yet in the                   
proposal he did not see anywhere that the tender operators would be            
able to benefit at all from the program.  For an example, his boat             
did not make any money this year, so they had to let the insurance             
lapse.  He also made comments on Quinhagak and Goodnews Bay being              
left out.  Mr. Richardson stated that there are six to eight tender            
operators in the community who all hire not only from Bethel but               
also from villages up and down the river, and they serve the river             
from Aniak to Goodnews Bay.                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Richardson how much would it take to             
get him, individually, back to work next year.                                 
                                                                               
MR. RICHARDSON responded, "That is hard to say; in a sense, my                 
insurance alone is $6,000 for the season.  That is $6,000 I've got             
to pay for a boat I can only use three months out of the year; the             
rest of the time it sits.  I will have to come up with enough funds            
to get the insurance company to reinstate my insurance policy.  I              
am assuming that a couple of grand to start with; that is not                  
counting what I have to do to my boat to get it ready.  Plus my                
helper, I end up buying their permits at the beginning of the                  
season.  I would guess a minimum of $4,000 just to get me in the               
water."                                                                        
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Richardson if he had a ballpark                  
figure if the individual caucus member and the legislature were to             
offer covering people who are not eligible, along the same lines as            
those that are.                                                                
                                                                               
MR. RICHARDSON responded that he could probably come up with a                 
figure.                                                                        
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Richardson if he could put together              
some quotes and send that down to Representative Ivan.                         
                                                                               
MR. RICHARDSON replied, "Yes, I would be more than happy to do                 
that".                                                                         
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN stated, "That if we could sell this idea, I                
think it would be more easy to sell to the caucus if we talk about             
that, perhaps some kind of emergency loan rather than people saying            
another handout to the Bush.  If we would try get some money and               
make it available for loans, perhaps the same provisions as the                
feds are doing, and if you have another bad year we could work with            
you on that."                                                                  
                                                                               
MR. RICHARDSON responded that he thought it would be a good idea               
and that the fisherman would go for it, too.  One other aspect he              
would like the legislature to look at is that fishermen have gone              
to the processor and said, "I am in desperate need of a motor unit             
for my boat; can you front me a thousand dollars?"  Sometimes they             
will do that, and in turn, each time the fisherman sells his fish              
to one of the operators for that processor, a percentage is                    
deducted and pretty soon it is paid off.  Mr. Richardson stated                
that to him it seems like a logical way for any kind of a loan made            
to these fisherman.                                                            
                                                                               
TAPE 98-3, SIDE B                                                              
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE JERRY SANDERS asked Mr. Richardson, since he works              
from one end of the Kuskokwim River to the other, if he may be in              
the position to say whether the legislature may be able to do                  
something like this.  Representative Sanders explained that there              
are long-run and short-run problems, and we are really addressing              
the short-run problem now.  He also asked Mr. Richardson whether in            
regards to the long-run problem, he thinks that the poor runs and              
the poor prices have brought the industry on the Kuskokwim to a                
position that there might be a chance that they can form co-ops or             
unions, some way to unite and have more influence over the market.             
                                                                               
MR. RICHARDSON responded that there needs to be a program set up               
for value-added fish products.  He would like to see a co-op, but              
he doesn't think it would work.  Mr. Richardson stated, "That's                
what has happened in the past, and the poor prices that the                    
fisherman receive, there is no real incentive, for example, in                 
Bristol Bay for a guy making 2 or 3 hundred thousand a year in his             
big boat.  Sure, I would jump into a co-op and really work hard                
with it for that kind of money, but when a man is making 2, 3, 4               
thousand in a whole season, there is not much incentive to really              
get out and break your back."  He also explained that there is a               
fishermen's union and they have tried.  In his experience he has               
not seen that entity being workable.                                           
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN stated, "I have something maybe you can help me            
out on.  I sit on budget subcommittee, and Alaska Seafood Marketing            
Institute (ASMI) is part of that.  They can come to us telling us              
they need millions of dollars for marketing, they can access                   
federal funds and so forth, but I have not really seen where their             
efforts have (indisc.)."  Mr. Ryan asked Mr. Richardson what his               
opinion is, and how it affects him.                                            
                                                                               
MR. RICHARDSON explained that he feels that the union is more of a             
benefit to the larger fish processors in the state, which in effect            
is a trickle-down thing that affected them, too.  He also stated               
that he has not heard anybody say anything bad about it and that               
there are positive aspects to it, one way or another.  It benefits             
the state of Alaska and it helps everybody, but as far as directly             
in their pocket, no.  Most of them feel that it mostly benefits the            
big processors, not so much the fisherman.                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Richardson if he had any contact with            
ASMI, and if so, did they talk to him about how they may help him              
market his fish.                                                               
                                                                               
MR. RICHARDSON responded that no, as a tender operator he is not               
always invited to attend those meetings.                                       
                                                                               
Number 734                                                                     
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN said to Jim Sanders, "My understanding of the                    
proposal that was developed was to see how far it trickled down and            
affects the tender operators; for example, Jessie Beaver of                    
Goodnews Bay made some comments that they sell whenever there are              
processors available or buyers in the area.  That seems like a weak            
link that contributes to this problem."                                        
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded that they really wanted to rely on the                   
expertise of the region.  Money and resources should get to the                
individual fisherman, and that was their primary concern.  That is             
why the majority of the money is going to go into the community                
grants.  Grants are a way of getting people to work so they can get            
money, so that fisherman can get employed after the fishing season             
and have some additional income.  That is the direct purpose of the            
grant programs.  Commerce would not give money directly to                     
fishermen without providing some sort of service.  As far as                   
providing money to tenders or to private businesses, that was not              
a priority that came out of either Bristol Bay or the Kuskokwim                
CRP.  Mr. Sanders explained that they went with the local                      
expertise.  Originally when the Governor made a request to the FEMA            
program, part of that request asked for money for unemployment                 
insurance and part asked for the SBA low-interest loan program.                
That would have been available to businesses such as tenders or                
stores in communities that have lack of income.  It is still an                
option, that they are seeking to get funding or at least allow                 
impacted businesses to apply for the SBA.                                      
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN extended his thanks to Mr. Richardson for his                    
testimony and stated that he would personally check it out with the            
Fish and Game budget committee, to see what in fact could be done.             
                                                                               
Number 793                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. RICHARDSON responded with his appreciation and went on to say,             
"An income criteria will be used (indisc.) at least 51 percent of              
the net earned family income is derived from fishing".  Mr.                    
Richardson then asked:  What do you do with a family of three that             
makes maybe $3,000 for fishing and the total family income is maybe            
$8,000 to $12,000 for the year?  He did not think that there are               
many permit holders that can meet that criteria.                               
                                                                               
Number 807                                                                     
                                                                               
MAX ANGELLAN, P.O. Box 77, Kwethluk, Alaska 99621, (907) 757-6714,             
Tribal Administrator and City Council Member, thanked the committee            
and expressed concerns about the plans and money for fuel, et                  
cetera, for subsistence reasons.  He also would like to see these              
people being helped with their electricity and other payments.  Mr.            
Angellan emphasized the need for fish counting stations.  In his               
opinion, if there is research and planning, future disasters can be            
avoided.  He also expressed that he is not happy with the Board of             
Fisheries.                                                                     
                                                                               
Number 020                                                                     
                                                                               
STANLEY BEAN, Kwethluk, suggested putting the 200-mile limit to a              
300-mile limit, and for Area M, reducing from 700,000 the quotas               
back to 350,000.                                                               
                                                                               
Number 031                                                                     
                                                                               
DAVID BERLIN, Nunapitchuk, stated that it would be better for the              
money to be provided to the fisherman rather than to the community.            
He mentioned that Buster Richardson commented on whether the                   
villages could reunite to get some funding for the processing plant            
management problem.  He said he also supported a pay increase for              
public safety and VPSOs.                                                       
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Jim Sanders about his comments about the            
money going to the community and not to individuals.  He asked, "Is            
part of the reason for that because if it went to individuals, a               
lot of money would leave the state on account of funds going to                
permit holders not from Alaska?"                                               
                                                                               
Number 074                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded that that was one of the concerns.  He said              
they don't want a lot of funds to go out of state.  The other                  
problem was that Commerce was adamant that they would not give                 
money directly to fishermen, that there had to be either a loan                
program or some sort of employment program.                                    
                                                                               
Number 084                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked Mr. Sanders if it was the intent under              
community employment that permit holders and crew would be the                 
recipients of the community employment grants.                                 
                                                                               
Number 088                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded that those were definitely the target group              
for employment.  He said that the cannery workers are also very                
affected, but those people who are most directly affected are the              
ones that they want to see employed in these projects.                         
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE JOULE asked, in regards to Mr. Richardson's                     
testimony earlier, whether that would apply to tender operators.               
He is not included as a permit holder but under community                      
employment.  If some of the money were to come to Bethel, would                
tender operators be eligible for potential employment under this               
scenario?                                                                      
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded that it is really going to be up to the                  
community to define (indisc.--muffled) as much of this decision                
making as we can to the community level.  Bethel puts together                 
plans, and if that is one group that they want to target, then                 
Bethel should encourage it.                                                    
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Sanders if there was discretion that             
once the money hits a community, the community, if they so choose,             
can make individual grants.                                                    
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded that Commerce does not want grants directed              
to individuals.                                                                
                                                                               
Number 108                                                                     
                                                                               
JACK HOPSTAD, AVCP, VPSO Program Coordinator, Box 219, Bethel,                 
Alaska 99559, (907 543-7391), provided a memorandum dated January              
22, 1998, to committee members about the VPSO program, asking the              
committee to consider eligibility for VPSOs.                                   
                                                                               
Number 162                                                                     
                                                                               
ALLEN ALIRKAR, Box 2025, Bethel, Alaska, (907) 543-5836,  stated               
that he is a Bristol Bay permit holder.  He asked the committee                
whether the state has a plan if future economical disaster occurs.             
He also asked that the state form some sort of committee to back up            
on loans.                                                                      
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN asked Jim Sander about future plans.                             
                                                                               
TAPE 98-4, SIDE A                                                              
Number 001                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded, "Yes, at least for this funding that we are             
using now, it is a brand-new approach and a brand-new resource, and            
Alaska is sort of on the cutting edge because we are defining how              
the Magnuson-Stevens money will be used in the future.  That is one            
reason why Commerce has been hesitant about how this money is                  
used."  Mr. Sanders explained that there is no comprehensive                   
planning as of yet.                                                            
                                                                               
Number 041                                                                     
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN asked Mr. Sanders if he has been able to work              
out a program for the small commercial fisherman.                              
                                                                               
Number 060                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded that was the purpose of having the two CRP               
organizations, that Bristol Bay understood their fishery and the               
Kuskokwim CRP understood their fishery.  The programs were                     
developed from their recommendations.                                          
                                                                               
REPRESENTATIVE RYAN responded that he would be interested in                   
looking at something that addresses what a bad year does to the                
smaller commercial fisherman and in making a program that can tide             
them over.                                                                     
                                                                               
Number 086                                                                     
                                                                               
JOBE ABRAHAM, SR., Box 71, Chefornak, Alaska ,(907) 867-8893,                  
testified in Yup'ik.                                                           
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN translated.  Mr. Abraham, Sr., is a fisherman in                 
Bristol Bay.  He commented about the high cost of living                       
experienced in Chefornak.                                                      
                                                                               
Number 260                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. ABRAHAM asked questions of Jim Sanders about the Internal                  
Revenue Service (IRS).                                                         
                                                                               
Number 268                                                                     
                                                                               
MR. SANDERS responded that there is nothing directly available to              
assist other than the loan program.  However, the department has               
worked with the IRS and they have had IRS representatives out in               
all the communities offering to work with fishermen to help them               
develop repayment schedules and to eliminate penalties and                     
interest.  The IRS has participated in a lot of the meetings and               
has been very active in the CRP process.                                       
                                                                               
Number 304                                                                     
                                                                               
DARIO NOTTI, P.O. Box 2175, Bethel, Alaska, (907) 543-3072, Bethel             
City Council, stated that eight of the last sixteen years he has               
fished as a crew member and worked other jobs, but he did not fish             
this year.  What worried him was that the city council will vote on            
hiring a fisherman or a carpenter to build a boardwalk.  That money            
might not go to where it is supposed to.  He would like to see                 
something that does not give them that option if the money is given            
to the council instead of the fisherman.                                       
                                                                               
Number 429                                                                     
                                                                               
MYRON P. NANENG, SR., Box 1226, Bethel, Alaska, (907) 543-7301,                
President, AVCP, stated that 1997 was the second disaster                      
declaration, the first being in 1993.  People anticipate another               
disaster in the year 2001.  He also said that the state subsidized             
hatcheries.  Maybe they should subsidize the transportation of chum            
in the Y-K Delta.  The committee needs to look at how matching                 
funds are to be utilized.                                                      
                                                                               
CHAIRMAN IVAN gave closing remarks and thanked all those who                   
participated in the hearing and the teleconference.                            
                                                                               
COMMITTEE ACTION                                                               
                                                                               
The committee took no action.                                                  
                                                                               
NOTE:                                                                          
                                                                               
The meeting was recorded and handwritten log notes were taken.  A              
copy of the tape(s) and log notes may be obtained by contacting the            
House Records Office at 130 Seward Street, Suite 211, Juneau,                  
Alaska  99801-1182, (907) 465-2214, and after adjournment of the               
second session of the Twentieth Alaska State Legislature, in the               
Legislative Reference Library.                                                 

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